A Non-Outdated Guide To Clash

General discussion about Super Mario Bros. X.
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A Non-Outdated Guide To Clash

Postby Enjl » Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:54 am

I see the term misused so often it drove me to make this topic so listen up:

This doesn't clash:
[rimg]http://i.imgur.com/LFDspYT.jpg[/rimg][rimg]https://i.imgur.com/kw9Qifj.png[/rimg][rimg]https://i.imgur.com/Y9XE23o.png[/rimg][rimg]https://i.imgur.com/J7PtxCr.jpg[/rimg]

Cheat sheet for why these things don't clash:
Spoiler: show
Nothing really stands out in a bad way.
This clashes:
[rimg]https://i.imgur.com/3wIEuTJ.png[/rimg][rimg]https://i.imgur.com/R4v5biK.png[/rimg][rimg]https://i.imgur.com/Xgp67lV.png[/rimg][rimg]http://i.imgur.com/LirLAgK.png[/rimg]

Cheat sheet for why these things clash:
Spoiler: show
1) The urchins' level of detail is way too low.
2) The logs are too dark for the environment.
3) The icon in the lower right is way too detailed and saturated. Note that the background is detailed, too, but it's relatively subdued so it doesn't stand out badly.
4) The themes don't match, creating a multicoloured mess. Note that all of this is vaguely SMW styled.
So, what does this mean?
-Clash means "this graphic doesn't fit its environment"
-If the environment allows for diversity, you can pretty much do anything, style-wise
-Clash is not related to the games you're mixing graphics from
-Clash more often happens due to color, differences in pixel density, or a clash of themes, but it's not necessary to smb3-style everything to avoid clash
-In the case of the urchin, the Urchin is advertised as SMB3 styled, but neither is it that, nor is it detailed enough to fit any of the styles present in the game. If something fits one of the styles in the game, it likely fits all of them.
-People who scream "clash!" in the first 4 screenshots are nitpick kings and should be shown this topic to get learned
-Clash needs to be determined on a case by case basis. If something doesn't stand out badly within the first second of blankly staring at a screenshot, it probably doesn't clash!!!!
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Re: A Non-Outdated Guide To Clash

Postby Snessy the duck » Sun Apr 22, 2018 4:13 am

Oh man, this is so much better than that shitty guide included with the CGFX pack. Hopefully this'll clear up the age-old misinterpertation of what clash actually is for good.
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Re: A Non-Outdated Guide To Clash

Postby Eri7 » Sun Apr 22, 2018 5:23 am

3) The icon in the lower right is way too detailed and saturated. Note that the background is detailed, too, but it's relatively subdued so it doesn't stand out badly.
So the icon can be easily fixed... I've seen some people use way more detailed backgrounds than me and they fit , why doesn't mine fit , i want to know.

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Re: A Non-Outdated Guide To Clash

Postby Enjl » Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:51 am

Eri7 wrote:
3) The icon in the lower right is way too detailed and saturated. Note that the background is detailed, too, but it's relatively subdued so it doesn't stand out badly.
So the icon can be easily fixed... I've seen some people use way more detailed backgrounds than me and they fit , why doesn't mine fit , i want to know.
High saturation gradient coupled with pixel density difference. The thing is, hud elements are things people are drawn towards, so having them match well with the rest of the foreground's average style is important.
Backgrounds on higher pixel density looking good is really the exception to the rule "avoid different pixel densities", because backgrounds are a uniform image spanning the entire stage, giving its style enough presence in the environment. They often have low saturation as well, which puts them out of the player's focus.
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Re: A Non-Outdated Guide To Clash

Postby Eri7 » Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:28 am

Enjl wrote:
Eri7 wrote:
3) The icon in the lower right is way too detailed and saturated. Note that the background is detailed, too, but it's relatively subdued so it doesn't stand out badly.
So the icon can be easily fixed... I've seen some people use way more detailed backgrounds than me and they fit , why doesn't mine fit , i want to know.
High saturation gradient coupled with pixel density difference. The thing is, hud elements are things people are drawn towards, so having them match well with the rest of the foreground's average style is important.
Backgrounds on higher pixel density looking good is really the exception to the rule "avoid different pixel densities", because backgrounds are a uniform image spanning the entire stage, giving its style enough presence in the environment. They often have low saturation as well, which puts them out of the player's focus.
I've seen people do that as well minus the hud part and they fit... i guess im out of luck when it comes to Enjl's opinion on my stuff.

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Re: A Non-Outdated Guide To Clash

Postby DerEric » Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:41 am

Isn't the first screenshot from my project?
Just wait and see.

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Re: A Non-Outdated Guide To Clash

Postby xDestroy » Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:58 am

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To much detail on the enemys and bgo`s compared to the ? block and breakable block
no

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Re: A Non-Outdated Guide To Clash

Postby Enjl » Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:10 am

Eri7 wrote: I've seen people do that as well minus the hud part and they fit... i guess im out of luck when it comes to Enjl's opinion on my stuff.
Care to provide some examples?
Ludwig_von Koopa wrote:Isn't the first screenshot from my project?
I've taken screenshots from the projects, episode and level forums for this thread. If you or anyone doesn't want their screenshot here, I can find a replacement.
xDestroy wrote:To much detail on the enemys and bgo`s compared to the ? block and breakable block
The difference in detail here is very, very slight. Not every difference in detail is clash. The important thing to always consider is the amount of space in the environment taken up by every level of detail. When there are many different styles with slight differences, they often blend together. If the entire level adhered to vanilla SMW and had one SMB3 ?-block in it, that block would clash. If the level didn't adhere to that style as much, it wouldn't.
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Re: A Non-Outdated Guide To Clash

Postby Taycamgame » Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:26 am

On the final screenshot, how would you go about fixing the clash? I thought making a castle level merge in with an outdoor area was fine.
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Re: A Non-Outdated Guide To Clash

Postby Cedur » Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:33 am

speaking of which, I personally like potpourris like the final screen and I don't consider it inherently wrong except for minor tweaks
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Re: A Non-Outdated Guide To Clash

Postby Enjl » Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:35 am

Taycamgame wrote:On the final screenshot, how would you go about fixing the clash? I thought making a castle level merge in with an outdoor area was fine.
That clash is thematic. You can fix it by replacing the lava with poison and choosing a darker forest background to make the contrast between sky and castle less harsh.
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Re: A Non-Outdated Guide To Clash

Postby Eri7 » Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:37 am

Enjl wrote:
Eri7 wrote: I've seen people do that as well minus the hud part and they fit... i guess im out of luck when it comes to Enjl's opinion on my stuff.
Care to provide some examples?
Ludwig_von Koopa wrote:Isn't the first screenshot from my project?
I've taken screenshots from the projects, episode and level forums for this thread. If you or anyone doesn't want their screenshot here, I can find a replacement.
xDestroy wrote:To much detail on the enemys and bgo`s compared to the ? block and breakable block
The difference in detail here is very, very slight. Not every difference in detail is clash. The important thing to always consider is the amount of space in the environment taken up by every level of detail. When there are many different styles with slight differences, they often blend together. If the entire level adhered to vanilla SMW and had one SMB3 ?-block in it, that block would clash. If the level didn't adhere to that style as much, it wouldn't.
R.O.A.'s project is my biggest example , https://www.supermariobrosx.org/forums/ ... hp?t=15703

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Re: A Non-Outdated Guide To Clash

Postby Electriking » Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:39 am

Taycamgame wrote:On the final screenshot, how would you go about fixing the clash? I thought making a castle level merge in with an outdoor area was fine.
You would remove the lava as that definitely is out of place in a grassland level (as Enjl said, replace it with poison). As for the castle, I think that would depend on what the creator was trying to achieve and how well it was executed. Like if it was supposed to be a ruins or represent the entrance of a castle, then it may be OK, although as Enjl said, a darker sky would improve it (or use a lighter castle tileset). Also you would remove most of the interior decoration as there is definitely too much of that and it does stick out like a sore thumb (and thus is part of the clash).
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Re: A Non-Outdated Guide To Clash

Postby Enjl » Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:45 am

Eri7 wrote:R.O.A.'s project is my biggest example , viewtopic.php?t=15703
He uses it mostly for backgrounds, and it works as long as those backgrounds don't become too detailed. The last few screenshots with leaves:
[rimg]http://i.imgur.com/3pBAsDK.png[/rimg][rimg]http://i.imgur.com/icKI2gQ.png[/rimg]
have some very finely detailed leaves that are in some places even outlined, drawing attention. I'd also say the cave separator needs to be more detailed and a bit brighter for it to work best in this environment, given how it leans against the very bright leaves.

[rimg]http://i.imgur.com/UKvXH4C.png[/rimg]
This background has a similar issue where the leaves at the top have an outline and are weirdly stretched which looks pretty bad surrounded by everything else in this screenshot.
Electriking wrote:Also you would remove most of the interior decoration as there is definitely too much of that and it does stick out like a sore thumb (and thus is part of the clash).
Oh boy inappropriate decoration... a bit seperate from clash I'd say but definitely something worth controlling yeah.
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Re: A Non-Outdated Guide To Clash

Postby Eri7 » Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:46 am

Enjl wrote:
Eri7 wrote:R.O.A.'s project is my biggest example , viewtopic.php?t=15703
He uses it mostly for backgrounds, and it works as long as those backgrounds don't become too detailed. The last few screenshots with leaves:
[rimg]http://i.imgur.com/3pBAsDK.png[/rimg][rimg]http://i.imgur.com/icKI2gQ.png[/rimg]
have some very finely detailed leaves that are in some places even outlined, drawing attention. I'd also say the cave separator needs to be more detailed and a bit brighter for it to work best in this environment, given how it leans against the very bright leaves.

[rimg]http://i.imgur.com/UKvXH4C.png[/rimg]
This background has a similar issue where the leaves at the top have an outline and are weirdly stretched which looks pretty bad surrounded by everything else in this screenshot.
Electriking wrote:Also you would remove most of the interior decoration as there is definitely too much of that and it does stick out like a sore thumb (and thus is part of the clash).
Oh boy inappropriate decoration... a bit seperate from clash I'd say but definitely something worth controlling yeah.
But i use them for backgrounds too?! Also i think that these backgrounds are way more detailed than my ones.

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Re: A Non-Outdated Guide To Clash

Postby Enjl » Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:53 am

Eri7 wrote: But i use them for backgrounds too?! Also i think that these backgrounds are way more detailed than my ones.
I think you misread my first post. I only pointed out clash in the gradient in the hud, and then went on to say that the background is subdued and doesn't stand out in a bad way.
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Re: A Non-Outdated Guide To Clash

Postby Eri7 » Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:56 am

Enjl wrote:
Eri7 wrote: But i use them for backgrounds too?! Also i think that these backgrounds are way more detailed than my ones.
I think you misread my first post. I only pointed out clash in the gradient in the hud, and then went on to say that the background is subdued and doesn't stand out in a bad way.
Oh ok , so i guess im fine if i change the hud.

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Re: A Non-Outdated Guide To Clash

Postby WildWEEGEE » Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:16 am

hmm... so you used my second ever post made as an example? now that screen wasn't really that bad but the level had some issues with clash in other areas

Ex: those SMW koopas really didn't fit. even back then it didn't sit right, correct me if i'm wrong but this screen shows clash.

BTW: my computer lost this program that allowed me to save screenshots that used print screen but atm I'm using google drive soo.... bad quality
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Re: A Non-Outdated Guide To Clash

Postby Enjl » Mon Apr 23, 2018 4:36 am

The lack of outline on the SMW koopas is a bit jarring here, yeah. To be honest, the overly nitpicky comments on your threat are what made me write this thread to begin with.

Also, I suggest uploading to imgur. And don't forget that F12 takes a screenshot in SMBX. https://imgur.com/
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Re: A Non-Outdated Guide To Clash

Postby WildWEEGEE » Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:20 am

Enjl wrote:The lack of outline on the SMW koopas is a bit jarring here, yeah. To be honest, the overly nitpicky comments on your threat are what made me write this thread to begin with.

Also, I suggest uploading to imgur. And don't forget that F12 takes a screenshot in SMBX. https://imgur.com/
Well smbx38A (the version that level used) can’t use f12 (it’s annoying) and I use imgur all the time just when I press print screen I have to paste it into a google drawing then crop it so it only shows the level.

However this thread is quite helpful and I hope people can learn from it before going review crazy lol.
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