A Manifesto on SMBX Politics

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Lord Nagaviper
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Re: A Manifesto on SMBX Politics

Postby Lord Nagaviper » Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:01 pm

Dang that's a lot to digest. I'm gonna try to give my two cents on this topic, since it's something I'm actually somewhat in the loop about.
Knux wrote:
Spoiler: show
Kyasarin enforced a strict, harsh policy. Users were being banned for no legitimate reasons, and this is what caused the migration from the original forum over to Knux Forum. The poor documentation of our history has lead to strange romanticisation for the way Kyasarin believed the community should function, as indicated by members such as CaptainTrek and Joey, who believe this method of administration was highly effective. This of course does not account for the fact that the overbearing population of the community were greatly resentful towards Kyasarin’s mistreating of the forums. Being a member of the private Revolver Games myself, it became pretty obvious early on that this site took a great disliking to the SMBX community, and at times seemed to take great joy in essentially ‘bullying little kids’ as it was put back then.

Kyasarin and CaptainTrek were both highly influential members, there’s no doubt about it. But, they are also notorious. It is my firm belief that everything that is wrong with the moderation of the SMBX community today is almost entirely their fault. This will be explained furthermore.

I'm not too sure I agree with your opinion that Kyasarin/Luminous/TrekWeb are very romanticized. While I'm sure there are a few users who do have some sort of appreciation for their efforts, the truth is that the vast majority of users from that time view them quite negatively, or uncomfortable at best. Even users who joined the community after these periods have pretty much only heard negative things about such moderation practices. Perhaps it's because of my own disconnect from this community, but I don't see much (if any) admiration for or emulation of such harsh moderation practices.

Knux wrote:
Spoiler: show
Joey’s forums, especially in 2014-15, were entirely under the same rule system that was proven to be oppressive and unfair. Members were being banned once more for no reason other than personal preference (for instance, BTB was banned for a ridiculous amount of time purely based on the fact a moderator didn’t like him - this happened, wasn’t the only time, and still exists as evidence in the forum archives). The staff refused to listen to any user input whatsoever, including my minimal request of changing a single gif because of its seizure risk (that was a time).

Joey is now no longer as involved as he once was, and while many staff members have since shown a more relaxed view-point, there are still many issues present. I believe that Kyasarin Rule was reinforced, but has since been chipped away at slightly. The complicated ‘strict’ ideology is still very much present, which undeniably exists as a result of Kyasarin’s decision to change the community.

Well, I guess this addresses my point above. To be honest I don't remember much of this time, though I do remember some drama on the forums. To me, this felt like I was maturing over time and perceiving things I would have once called "unfair" or "harsh" being treated in a more adult-like manner.

Knux wrote:
Spoiler: show
The SMBX community is predominately made up of a younger audience, prior to Redigit’s ‘requirement’ to implement COPPA it became an apparent issue that anyone under the age of 12 wasn’t considered ‘mature’ enough to be on the boards. While this argument has weight to it, these judgements were passed on by members who, for the most part, were neither legal adults themselves. Although there is an obvious age gap between two generations, and while the older members are likely to behave or socialise better, they are still far too young to make serious judgement and to fully grasp the concept of running a community at their age.

Looking back, I used to think I was amongst the most adult-like forum leaders - I was the average age for admin, 14-15. Looking back, it’s quite clear that this was an issue. I certainly was not mature enough to be in charge of the community, and neither was anyone else within the same age category, i.e. most of the staff.

This presents two big problems, the first one being that SMBX has had a history of ‘kids running kids’ and second being that the staff are incapable of recognising this. SMBX forums under Kysasarin Rule were far too strict for a forum based on what is essentially a kid’s franchise. Users would complain about the high number of young folks despite the fact it was a forum rooted in the younger generation of gaming. Knux Rule attempted to tackle this, and found that this gave way for an poorly controlled environment. Should this mean users are better off babied and allowed to act silly? No, but the rules that apply on other online communities with a more mature user base don’t necessarily work here. Staff have quit mainly for the way the community is, and again, they didn’t take into consideration of the audience SMBX has acquired over the years.

Thank you for bringing this up. Firstly, as someone who themselves was barred from joining the original forums due to COPPA, it kind of stung that people literally one or two years older than me were able to make judgements about my immaturity. That being said, this made me notice that as I've grown up I sometimes make these same judgements, the very ones I complained about, to younger users. I never really realized that most active users aren't aging with me but remain in the particular age group I was in when I joined the community until I read this. SMBX is, in a sense, for kids, and it doesn't make sense to judge all users through the lens of a 20+ year old or whatever.

Knux wrote:
Spoiler: show
The point I’m trying to make is no matter what the staff team do, whether that be enforcing stricter rules or purging, the SMBX community will always be populated by younger members. The older users get, the more likelier they are to move on to other things. The vast majority of members from 2009-13 are no longer here, and this is clearly to do with age.

Staff members also fall within the 13-18 category, but no matter how capable they think they are, they simply are not. At 14, you do not have good judgement. That is a fact of life. You are simply not clued up enough on the real world to fully grasp things. Members within this age category were too emotionally invested in their jobs, and started blurring the lines between an actual offence and personal issues. This issue is present a lot in teenage relationships.
I’m saying this as a 22-year old, and I will no doubt reflect on the age I am now in the future. The ideal solution here, in my opinion, is to put an age restriction on staff. I am not sure if this is a requirement now, but it makes sense. Anyone over the age of 18, ask yourself this; did you consider yourself mature enough at 14, only to realise that in fact, you weren’t?

I know there's a lot of contention over this point, but I agree with Knux. Again, going back to me being too young for the original forums, I considered myself mature enough to be a part of the community, and maybe even to be a moderator or admin. In middle school I was given the opportunity to be an admin, not for SMBX but for a Terraria server, and oh boy were there issues. I thought I was able to handle the job pretty well, but to be honest I hardly did any work at all and only kicked/banned/messed with people who were annoying me. I really only wanted to be admin for the popularity boost, to be a part of the Big Kids Club. At the time I thought I was doing what's right, but looking back on it I was basically playing dictator junior on a server and making up my own rules for things. While my case shouldn't be taken as indicative of all young users, I think it's behavior that we should take into consideration.

Natsu wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:12 am
Spoiler: show
That being said, I am willing to take Knux's side on this simply because many, and I mean many of us have truly seen the staff as "the cool kids club" at least once, and those that deny this need to come to terms with this. I identify myself as one of those people that felt that way and admit it is the main reason why I wanted to join the staff way back, and have also committed the same mistakes Knux point out. I can see this thanks to the experiences I have gone through, and the staff should be formed of people that have done so as well, AKA older people.

This comment also stuck out to me. I was pretty active on Valtteri's forums when they existed, and I eventually became a level judge. Why? Honestly, not to judge levels, no. It was simply to join a higher-tier club in the community, the Big Kids Club. Reflecting on such immature behavior has made me wonder how many other users have/had the same mindset I did.

I don't have anything in particular to say about the rules, so I'm gonna skip to the end.

Knux wrote:
Spoiler: show
Again, I really hope that staff do not see this as an attack. I only care about benefiting this community and making sure it has a chance of reviving itself. These problems presented in the manifesto are, as far as I’m concerned, overbearing and the main cause for all the departures and unwelcoming atmosphere. I also would like this thread to remain open for discussion, although within a civil manner. If the staff decide that this thread should be locked, which I think will only add to the list of problems, then at least allow this to exist as preservation.

Overall, I think that this post was needed; a lot of this community's history is forgotten and we really do need a refresher on what happened and how to improve in the future. Growing up and slowly becoming more inactive in this community, I think that the era of geezers like us is over. The community will continue to live in one way or another, with or without us, and the best that we can do is remind them of history so that past mistakes are not repeated. I'm genuinely quite impressed that despite the tumultuous history SMBX has had, the community continues to survive. I feel pretty disconnected from it all now, but I guess that's just what growing up is.

Well that ended kind of poetic.
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Re: A Manifesto on SMBX Politics

Postby Fuyu » Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:28 pm

@WaddleDerp: My bad, sorry for the misunderstanding. Looking at your previous post I do see that now.

I stand by my point still.
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Re: A Manifesto on SMBX Politics

Postby Cedur » Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:02 pm

Natsu wrote:A strict set of rules may seem like a functional one on paper, but the problem here isn't the rules but the people that enforce them. A controllable environment is begging for someone to take it to the extreme as it was the case with Kyasarin and Luminous. It has been proven to fail not once, but twice, and I think we don't need to make it a third to realize that it's flawed.

Basically what I have to call "strict" in this community literally comes down to "be normal and behave". Nothing more. Again, I've made the point to not associate Kyasarin and Luminous with thorough rule enforcement at all. You can do that without being aggressive and banning half of the users. I claim it doesn't fail if you're generally suited for being staff. Is it on the staff's fault that a simple "behave" is too much for some? Aren't these like invididual cases only?
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Re: A Manifesto on SMBX Politics

Postby Vinyl Scratch » Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:58 am

Waddle Derp wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:17 pm
Great takes from users who haven't been actively participating in all the actually active and good parts of the community for a while. The discord-side of things is actually doing really quite well; the state of the forum is a terrible indicator for the state of the SMBX community as a whole. It's time to take off those rose-tinted goggles and accept that the community will probably never live up the glory it once reached in your memories. But that doesn't mean that the community itself can't still be a good one- it will simply never be as good as the one you oh so fondly remember.
Imagine unironically undermining someone's argument because they haven't been actively contributing in one part of the community when lurking is a very real thing.
I swear the SMBX community uses ad hominem the most out of every community I've been in because they cannot actively fight against someone's arguments, so they point at personal points instead thinking they're the smartest.
Great take from a newly promoted administrator from the Super Mario Bros X Dot Org™ who can truly utilize fallacies against others.
Have you ever thought that maybe they aren't rose-tinted goggles, and the community was actually at a pretty good state in the past? Because there certainly are not as many active users who were around in the older days. You could attribute that to people getting older and some being in their 20s or even 30s, but if that is the case then were is FutureNyanCat and all of the other underage users that used to browse SMBX? Did they just get tired of the engine? That can't be, because the engine has had a strong fanbase for quite some time, has amazing customization that puts most editors to shame, has now been injected with literal coding. Plus it was a pretty funny thing that was brought up from time to time as a joke, but the joke has had some weight to it; We may be the SMBX community, but we're community first, and SMBX second. And the Discord doesn't help but back that statement up.
Rest In Peace Privana.
Ad hominem.
Spoiler: show
Mivixion wrote:We don't cater to the minority.
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RegisteredUsername wrote:Well with that shitty attitude of yours, I don't know how you are still on this Forums.

And with that long paragraph of shit, why aren't you classed as the "SMBX Community's bullshiter"?
Snowburger wrote:Also,yeah Vinyl,I must have serious brain damage for not liking something you like XD
DarkMatt wrote:You were off being a shitposter so I didn't bother.
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AeroMatter wrote:4/17/2015 - The day an /a/ meme caused conflict in SMBX.
Joey wrote:In the future there will be an official version of SMBX that contains LunaLua, but it's not going to come right now. I promise that it'll happen, though.
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Re: A Manifesto on SMBX Politics

Postby Waddle » Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:58 am

Vinyl Scratch wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:58 am
Waddle Derp wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:17 pm
Great takes from users who haven't been actively participating in all the actually active and good parts of the community for a while. The discord-side of things is actually doing really quite well; the state of the forum is a terrible indicator for the state of the SMBX community as a whole. It's time to take off those rose-tinted goggles and accept that the community will probably never live up the glory it once reached in your memories. But that doesn't mean that the community itself can't still be a good one- it will simply never be as good as the one you oh so fondly remember.
Imagine unironically undermining someone's argument because they haven't been actively contributing in one part of the community when lurking is a very real thing.
His inactivity was not the basis of my argument- that would be his absence from the Discord. There is a profound difference in being inactive in a Discord server and not being in it. If Nien is indeed lurking in the Discord then first of all, I'm sorry. My bad. Second, I'd find myself wondering why he would exclude the Discord from the total picture of the SMBX community when, as I've been trying to argue, it's an integral part to it these days.
Vinyl Scratch wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:58 am
I swear the SMBX community uses ad hominem the most out of every community I've been in because they cannot actively fight against someone's arguments, so they point at personal points instead thinking they're the smartest.
Again, my comment against Nien was not an ad hominem. I've had quite enough of people attacking me on supposed personal biases when this was only an argument as to why the Discord is now a part of the community, and ignoring that makes claims about the state of the community as a whole less meaningful.
Vinyl Scratch wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:58 am
Great take from a newly promoted administrator from the Super Mario Bros X Dot Org™ who can truly utilize fallacies against others.
If you're going to call me out on fallacies don't include one in the very same sentence.
Vinyl Scratch wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:58 am
Have you ever thought that maybe they aren't rose-tinted goggles, and the community was actually at a pretty good state in the past?
Sure, perhaps it was. But it also wasn't without its problems. Later in this same argument you use the amount of active members an an indicator for how well the SMBX community is doing as a whole, but looking at member count alone is not going to get you the full picture of the state of a community at a certain point in time.
Vinyl Scratch wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:58 am
Because there certainly are not as many active users who were around in the older days. You could attribute that to people getting older and some being in their 20s or even 30s, but if that is the case then were is FutureNyanCat and all of the other underage users that used to browse SMBX? Did they just get tired of the engine? That can't be, because the engine has had a strong fanbase for quite some time, has amazing customization that puts most editors to shame, has now been injected with literal coding.
I do think it's a somewhat bold assumption, to think that people wouldn't ever get tired of SMBX. But you're right, perhaps the active userbase is smaller than it has been in the past. But at the same time there are still a lot of actively contributing members, and, as you said, lurking members alike. Where old members leave, new members also join- just because a few familiar faces aren't around anymore, that doesn't mean that the entire community is declining. SMBX2 development is still progressing, slowly but steadily, MAGLX3 is around the corner; if you're willing to look past the differences in userbase you'll find that there's a fair amount of activity and good things happening for the community.
Vinyl Scratch wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:58 am
Plus it was a pretty funny thing that was brought up from time to time as a joke, but the joke has had some weight to it; We may be the SMBX community, but we're community first, and SMBX second. And the Discord doesn't help but back that statement up.
I'm sorry, but I'm really not sure what you're getting at here. Are you saying that the Discord is detrimental to the community? That the discord puts SMBX first? Whatever the case I'd argue that the SMBX Forum Discord and Codehaus alike have brought people together in new and exciting ways, ways that highlight the value of these Discord servers.

I apologize for my sarcastic attitude in that first response to Nien, but I also won't stand for people mislabeling my argument as a personal attack because of it. All I am saying, all that I have been trying to say for quite a few posts now, is that the Discord server is a vital part to the community in its current state. Therefore, making statements about the state of the entire community while excluding the Discord server would be doing the community a great injustice.

I implore you all to look past all the hostility in this thread and consider that perhaps the community isn't worse- it's just different.
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Re: A Manifesto on SMBX Politics

Postby Cedur » Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:39 am

Vinyl Scratch wrote:Have you ever thought that maybe they aren't rose-tinted goggles, and the community was actually at a pretty good state in the past? Because there certainly are not as many active users who were around in the older days.

> "the community was bigger = the community was better"

in fact, quite the opposite is true

I have to add to the statement that if you want to judge the community you have to continuously watch it from the inside, with no break of a year and more, since a lot can change within said year
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Re: A Manifesto on SMBX Politics

Postby Vinyl Scratch » Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:03 pm

You guys misconstrued my argument hard in the end there. I never ever even implied that the bigger a community is or the more active it is the better. What I was implying was that there were multiple reasons for people to leave the SMBX community. Real life and getting tired of the engine are some of them, but another one that I know people who have left the community for are getting tired of how the community has regressed in the past.
"If you're going to call out fallacies then don't include one in the same sentence."
I'm glad you recognized that it is a fallacy.
I am not saying Discord is not a part of the community nowadays, because I fully recognize it is. What I'm saying is that the community cares about other members first, and the actual topic of the community second.
Rest In Peace Privana.
Ad hominem.
Spoiler: show
Mivixion wrote:We don't cater to the minority.
Image

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RegisteredUsername wrote:Well with that shitty attitude of yours, I don't know how you are still on this Forums.

And with that long paragraph of shit, why aren't you classed as the "SMBX Community's bullshiter"?
Snowburger wrote:Also,yeah Vinyl,I must have serious brain damage for not liking something you like XD
DarkMatt wrote:You were off being a shitposter so I didn't bother.
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AeroMatter wrote:4/17/2015 - The day an /a/ meme caused conflict in SMBX.
Joey wrote:In the future there will be an official version of SMBX that contains LunaLua, but it's not going to come right now. I promise that it'll happen, though.
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<AeroMatter> vinyl tbch cause we need more people like you
<Vinyl> NEET Shitposters?
<AeroMatter> yes

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Re: A Manifesto on SMBX Politics

Postby Waddle » Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:12 pm

Vinyl Scratch wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:03 pm
You guys misconstrued my argument hard in the end there. I never ever even implied that the bigger a community is or the more active it is the better. What I was implying was that there were multiple reasons for people to leave the SMBX community. Real life and getting tired of the engine are some of them, but another one that I know people who have left the community for are getting tired of how the community has regressed in the past.
If people left because of how the forum was moderated in the past, I don't see how that is relevant to the current situation unless you're implying that people are currently leaving because of staff policies. And if that is indeed your implication, please do elaborate as to what you think is going wrong.
Vinyl Scratch wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:03 pm
"If you're going to call out fallacies then don't include one in the same sentence."
I'm glad you recognized that it is a fallacy.
Come on dude. I explained that I wasn't attacking Nien personally in my previous response. I will gladly have a civil discussion with you on how this place is run and why, but not if you keep up this snide tone.
Vinyl Scratch wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:03 pm
I am not saying Discord is not a part of the community nowadays, because I fully recognize it is. What I'm saying is that the community cares about other members first, and the actual topic of the community second.
You seem to be getting at a point, but not making it. Are you saying that the Discord server puts SMBX first and its members second? Are you saying that the staff team's priorities are skewed?
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Re: A Manifesto on SMBX Politics

Postby Megar » Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:52 pm

perhaps if you all actually promoted me after that election that I won this place wouldn't be in such a state 😩
disgusting

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Re: A Manifesto on SMBX Politics

Postby Cedur » Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:07 pm

Megar wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:52 pm
perhaps if you all actually promoted me after that election that I won this place wouldn't be in such a state 😩

1) these memes are nowhere helpful

2) you only took second place even
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Re: A Manifesto on SMBX Politics

Postby Megar » Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:10 pm

two people were promoted so try again nerd
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Re: A Manifesto on SMBX Politics

Postby Waddle » Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:19 pm

This thread is not really going anywhere. If anyone seeks to continue this discussion I encourage them to do so in private.
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