Motivation

General discussion about Super Mario Bros. X.
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Motivation

Postby Enjl » Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:31 am

This topic is about finishing projects and having fun designing. If this is something you're interested in, awesome! If you're not interested in these points yet still create levels... I think something might've gone wrong somewhere.

So. Projects. Before I start, let me just address that I use the term "Projects" in a more broad sense than you might be used to on this community. A project can be an episode (or game as I prefer to call them), but can also be an individual level, some scripts, graphics, whatever you can think of.
Similarly, "design" also can refer to all kinds of design processes. Nothing here is restricted to SMBX or games made in it, but I use it as an example here because it's convenient.
With that out of the way... projects.

I've come to realise that there's a large difference in the design philosophy between Mario Maker and the SMBX/SMW communities. Take a quick look around the cool levels series on this channel and you will find things you would never find here, even though this engine is supposedly more powerful. People on the SMW community occasionally create levels like that, too, but they're very few people.
What does that have to do with motivation? I'll get to it.

I think the root of this difference in philosophy is because how the term "project" is defined in the different communities. While here it means "a game consisting of multiple levels", Mario Maker completely lacks the idea of "worlds", making the term "project" refer to any standalone level instead.
Now that alone doesn't rule out the possibility of a project of multiple levels having exclusively top-tier, unique levels that all were intensely fun to design and play, but it makes it much less likely in my eyes: With most projects you will see here, the developer promises a structure from the get-go. Here's an example:

Code: Select all

World 1: Attractive Grasslands - 4 levels
World 2: Beautiful Desert - 4 levels
World 3: Charismatic Tundra - 4 levels
World 4: Dandy Forest - 5 levels
World 5: Enthusiastic Mountains - 5 levels
World 6: Lair of Sadness - 6 Levels (FINAL!!!)
World 7: ??????????? - 7 levels (Bonus)
while the structure for your average Mario Maker project often overlaps with the execution of 4-step design in a single level.
And I think this difference in scale sets a different tone for the contents of a project.
Development time is a big factor in this. A Mario Maker project might take a few weeks to a month, taking other hobbies and testing into account, but a SMBX project is often set to take years with the same effort put into each level. And this is where motivation comes into play:

The longer the development time, the longer the time until the developer gains satisfaction from seeing his finished product.

One could argue that finishing every level in a project has a satisfaction to it, and while it definitely does and I agree with that, I also think this satisfaction is quickly drowned out by the thought of "oof I still gotta make 3 more levels with this world's theme". At other times, while working on such projects myself, I found myself thinking "alright and onto the next one" without even giving satisfaction time to kick in, and completely disregarding any testing I should've done.
It became mass-production where the goal of finishing the project was more important than making the project consistently enjoyable. I no longer had fun, lost my motivation, started cutting worlds short, and stopped. And I'm not the only one.

This is a big problem with working on a scope like this, and from working on 2k1x games that usually have a much shorter production time I can confirm that they were much more fun to work on than your average 8-world-project, but I don't think that projects at such a scale are immediately doomed to fail. Here are two ways:

1) Plan everything. Know your content from the get-go.
Don't make promises about world count if you have no idea how to fill them. Try to come up with ideas, write them down on a sheet and later arrange them when you think you have enough or can't come up with more. It might break the world structure or produce a smaller game, but I don't think those are downsides.
2) Work with friends. Split the work. Have fun together and give each other advice.
By teamwork I mean... actual teamwork. Talk to your teammates, make levels together, sit down in a call and talk about what you wanna do in your levels, give each other ideas. Brainstorming together can spawn new ideas and lift your levels above what little was planned for them from the start. Read this topic for more detail on teamwork.
2.5) Try out standalone levels to ease yourself into the process of designing something elaborate. It's not a full-length game but will give quick results.

Finishing things builds confidence in your abilities and will strengthen your dedication to work on projects. With more experience you will find yourself more confident in trying more elaborate projects. I remember I started small in pixel art and later casually whipped up wallpaper-size images which I would've given up on a year before making them.

So. To conclude: How can we get the most fun out of designing?
By reducing the scope of a project and making sure it doesn't fall into the trap of feeling like mass-production. Having ideas going into a project and asking friends for their input will help in tackling both larger and smaller projects.
Experience is the reason why the Mario Maker levels I linked at the start are so unique and creative. The designers experiment with the engine and have made many projects in it that got better and better with each one. People in SMW also try understanding their engine due to its limitations, but here I hardly see experimentation at all which I blame on the tendency of the mass-production mentality.
I'm not saying "let's not make projects anymore", not at all, but I do encourage you to try making levels that aren't meant to be part of some greater game. Perhaps to check out a part of the engine you're unfamiliar with or just to get a cool level done and get some feedback.

Thanks for listening to my wild ramblings and... gl, hf!
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Re: Motivation

Postby Snessy the duck » Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:39 am

This would definetly be really useful for any project designer out there, great job on this!
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Re: Motivation

Postby Aero » Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:35 pm

Very good thread. I was planning on writing something very similar to this to hopefully be stickied in the Levels forum. Glad you mentioned 4-step design and collaboration.

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Re: Motivation

Postby Unidentified » Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:11 pm

This is a really helpful thread. It really made me understand the true reason I never make episodes. It is indeed difficult to do long episodes and this is probably the reason why so many projects end up cancelled.

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Re: Motivation

Postby Danny » Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:02 am

Relevant to the topic, I feel like more regulation needs to be set in place for the levels and projects/episodes forum so people stop creating projects and then abandoning them, or people consistently making bad levels with no sign of improvement in sight. I feel like there's more that plays into a lack of motivation rather than just large, over-ambitious projects, such as people expecting to receive constructive criticism or having people play their levels, but having their levels/projects go completely ignored, and that completely kills interest and motivation.

viewtopic.php?f=89&t=18825
viewtopic.php?f=89&t=18820
viewtopic.php?f=89&t=18900
viewtopic.php?f=89&t=17666
viewtopic.php?f=89&t=18833
viewtopic.php?f=89&t=18482

These are just some of the more recently posted levels that are (nearly) devoid of constructive criticism, are rather poor in presentation, and would generally receive no attention later on down the road, so they would essentially be lost to time, and this can lead to the creators of these levels losing motivation to work on future projects, or it devolves into a vicious cycle of poor levels being posted repeatedly in an effort to get people to play them.
I think more emphasis needs to be put on building confidence through opinions and criticisms of others, as that will not only give you the focus and motivation to improve your design as a whole, but it will also show that people have at least some interest in the work you're putting into these things. What killed my motivation on making levels wasn't self-confidence or anything of the sort, it was the basic fact that not enough people care for your work or pay attention to it to make it worth the effort of going through and making levels or working on projects, and I'd bet that newer members can relate to this sentiment.

I can understand it must be very frustrating for new users to look at a more well-known user's work, which has received so much praise and recognition, then move on to trying to create their own levels just to be met with no criticisms, no form of recognition, and essentially no basis for them to improve on based on the expectations of the community. You can independently follow this "4-step design" for your levels and still be met with next to no audience just because you're a particularly new user and no one wants to bother with that, and that will completely kill motivation to work on future projects. I've been seeing this crop up a lot, and this was a lot more prominent during NSMBX's era when there were new users coming in every other day, so we necessarily want a repeat of that incident.

Another issue that comes up is that it's hard for newer users to get into the teamwork aspect of level building, especially with friends, when everyone is so reserved or dedicated to their standard social group/circle of friends in this community, it really limits your options of who you can expect to be willing to design levels with you. I have tried countless times to get into a communicative teamwork aspect with people in this community, but when there are any forms of conflict or differentiating opinions, the whole show falls apart, and it will regardless of whether you have perfect communication or not. The bottom-line is that it is near impossible for new users who join this community independently to follow these guidelines and expect good results out of them, especially the teamwork aspect, because none of the current community members are ready and willing to provide assistance, tips, criticisms, or feedback to others, and the proof of this has been in example since the community first formed all those years ago.
Honestly, if you expect to make a difference and want to see better level design from a broader number of participants, try to be proactive, lend a physical hand out to those who need help, drop by with occasional feedback to smaller, lesser-known members, and most importantly be courteous about it. Quite frankly, attempting to spark motivation by providing semi-inspirational speeches and general guides won't really push anything anywhere, as more needs to be done on a personal and confrontational level.
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Re: Motivation

Postby TDK » Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:01 am

Danny wrote: Relevant to the topic, I feel like more regulation needs to be set in place for the levels and projects/episodes forum so people stop creating projects and then abandoning them, or people consistently making bad levels with no sign of improvement in sight. I feel like there's more that plays into a lack of motivation rather than just large, over-ambitious projects, such as people expecting to receive constructive criticism or having people play their levels, but having their levels/projects go completely ignored, and that completely kills interest and motivation.
I agree with your point, but your examples are just terrible (some of those thread actually have some of the rare constructive criticism, and one of them is a joke """level""" which obviously will not have any). Here's some better examples:
viewtopic.php?f=89&t=18818
viewtopic.php?f=89&t=18820
viewtopic.php?f=89&t=18727
viewtopic.php?f=89&t=18872
viewtopic.php?f=89&t=18899
viewtopic.php?f=89&t=17343

The main issue with the level subforum is that most post are usually not even relevant to the level.
It's usually just judging from screenshot, being pendantic, backseat moderating and other just terrible reviews that just give a score without explaining why.

This thread is really great in showing how bad the level subforum is. viewtopic.php?f=89&t=18863
The first reply is judging from the screenshot.
The next 7 is just people correcting the first reply.
The 8th reply is a terrible review that contains no constructive criticism. Just a score.
It's only until the 13th reply that there's a relevant post about the level.

The main problem with the level subforum is that unless a level is really good or really bad, it will be ignored.
Last edited by TDK on Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Motivation

Postby HeroLinik » Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:25 am

TheDinoKing wrote:judging from screenshot
People really need to stop doing this. My criticism topic specifically stated that people should not be judging from screenshots because it gives a false impression of what the level really is. Say the level is bland just because the screens look that way? That doesn't do anything, and it may turn people off from playing the level. If anything is done, reviewing from screenshots is just an example of laziness at not bothering to download the level and give a more in-depth review. If you have something to say about the level but don't know how to say it without downloading the level, then don't even bother saying it.
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Re: Motivation

Postby Danny » Tue Jun 27, 2017 3:02 pm

TheDinoKing wrote:
Danny wrote: Relevant to the topic, I feel like more regulation needs to be set in place for the levels and projects/episodes forum so people stop creating projects and then abandoning them, or people consistently making bad levels with no sign of improvement in sight. I feel like there's more that plays into a lack of motivation rather than just large, over-ambitious projects, such as people expecting to receive constructive criticism or having people play their levels, but having their levels/projects go completely ignored, and that completely kills interest and motivation.
I agree with your point, but your examples are just terrible (some of those thread actually have some of the rare constructive criticism, and one of them is a joke """level""" which obviously will not have any). Here's some better examples:
viewtopic.php?f=89&t=18818
viewtopic.php?f=89&t=18820
viewtopic.php?f=89&t=18727
viewtopic.php?f=89&t=18872
viewtopic.php?f=89&t=18899
viewtopic.php?f=89&t=17343
How are the examples terrible? They're no different from what you provided, aside from the joke level, which still was not taken seriously, and I believe at some point in time there were actually rules against joke levels like that. The point was not to focus on the quality of the level, but the attention the levels have received in regards to criticism or just general audience, and the examples I provided, again with the exception of the joke level, pretty much met that criteria.
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Re: Motivation

Postby TDK » Tue Jun 27, 2017 3:13 pm

Danny wrote: How are the examples terrible? They're no different from what you provided, aside from the joke level, which still was not taken seriously, and I believe at some point in time there were actually rules against joke levels like that. The point was not to focus on the quality of the level, but the attention the levels have received in regards to criticism or just general audience, and the examples I provided, again with the exception of the joke level, pretty much met that criteria.
The first and last example you gave had actual feedback, although it's only one post.
The third and fourth example has relevant post about the level, although most of it is repeating the same thing.
The only example thread that you linked that was devoid of any criticism is the second example.
The examples thread I linked all have no feedback that goes beyond the usual "cool" that doesn't say anything about the level (except for the last example as that has gotten a recent review).

But anyway, it's good to know that people are now noticing how bad the level subforum is.

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Re: Motivation

Postby Danny » Tue Jun 27, 2017 3:42 pm

TheDinoKing wrote:
Danny wrote: How are the examples terrible? They're no different from what you provided, aside from the joke level, which still was not taken seriously, and I believe at some point in time there were actually rules against joke levels like that. The point was not to focus on the quality of the level, but the attention the levels have received in regards to criticism or just general audience, and the examples I provided, again with the exception of the joke level, pretty much met that criteria.
The first and last example you gave had actual feedback, although it's only one post.
And both of them were literally from you and no one else. A single post providing criticism or feedback is not going to prove anything.
TheDinoKing wrote:The third and fourth example has relevant post about the level, although most of it is repeating the same thing.
Both of those levels presented themselves extremely poorly.
TheDinoKing wrote:The only example thread that you linked that was devoid of any criticism is the second example.
The examples thread I linked all have no feedback that goes beyond the usual "cool" that doesn't say anything about the level (except for the last example as that has gotten a recent review).
If you had bothered to read my post, you would have known that I wasn't providing these examples just for their lack of criticism.
Danny wrote:These are just some of the more recently posted levels that are (nearly) devoid of constructive criticism, are rather poor in presentation, and would generally receive no attention later on down the road, so they would essentially be lost to time, and this can lead to the creators of these levels losing motivation to work on future projects, or it devolves into a vicious cycle of poor levels being posted repeatedly in an effort to get people to play them.
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Re: Motivation

Postby TDK » Tue Jun 27, 2017 3:53 pm

My bad.
Last edited by TDK on Tue Jun 27, 2017 4:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Motivation

Postby timocomsmbx2345 » Tue Jun 27, 2017 3:57 pm

motivation is motivation.
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Re: Motivation

Postby Zha Hong Lang » Tue Jun 27, 2017 5:04 pm

Danny wrote:Relevant to the topic, I feel like more regulation needs to be set in place for the levels and projects/episodes forum so people stop creating projects and then abandoning them, or people consistently making bad levels with no sign of improvement in sight. I feel like there's more that plays into a lack of motivation rather than just large, over-ambitious projects, such as people expecting to receive constructive criticism or having people play their levels, but having their levels/projects go completely ignored, and that completely kills interest and motivation.
Funny thing really, because I was discussing with Enjl earlier today that the projects and levels subforums could actually use less regulation, although for a different purpose. We were thinking that there's too much emphasis placed on getting a level or episode FINISHED (or have definite progress) before it's allowed to be shared, which is destructive for the what ideas this topic shares. It'd be nice to have feedback on a level before it's finished, even little, non-indepth ones, to push yourself along to completion, and to shoot down possible mistakes if other people do have something critical to share.

However, for your argument's sake, I generally disagree. I don't really think there's a clean-cut way to enforce "good presentation" in such a way that's productive for newcomers. What "good presentation" is to one person may be different, or even contradictory to what another person thinks it is. This would result in an typical predicament of "you didn't do this the way you were supposed to" with the respose "but I thought I did!". I do think that good presentation could be encouraged on an individual level, but I really don't think a rule about it would be helpful.

While I can agree that forum users should be more proactive and involved in what new users are creating and sharing, I'd say that it goes both ways. One of the things I noticed about new users on NSMBX and Knux's forums is that while they didn't receive any comments on their work, their work was also literally their only tie into the forum. They weren't involved in the community in any other way, even through posting screenshots in the screenshot thread or something. To me, it's really no wonder they weren't able to receive in-depth feedback, because they hadn't formed deep enough relationships with someone who could give that to them.

However, one thing I remember about NSMBX and Knux's forum was that both sites also had level judges, people who were dedicated to critically reviewing all the levels in the level section. I guess there might not be enough people willing to fill in that role (hence we're discussing about people ignoring content, haha), but if there were, even in spirit, they would definitely be very beneficial.

And now I make a round trip back to my very first point. Because there's too much emphasis on getting a finished product out, a level judge would have to be bothered enough to download the level, place it somewhere in their world folder, play through the level, and then conceive and write their opinion. However, if WIP topics were allowed where you could just share an idea or a few screenshots, then none of that's required--they'd just have to read through the topic, and they could start writing their opinion from there. It'd still be a lot of work, but the work per level/episode in progress would be a lot less, so with the same amount of effort spent would help more people than it would if they had to judge a whole level or a whole level pack.
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Re: Motivation

Postby Mudkip » Tue Jun 27, 2017 5:56 pm

You see me quitting and coming back every once in a while and it probably will be like that again anytime soon. I can relate to most of what you've mentioned in the starting post, except that my main lack of motivation comes from laziness, I guess. However, that's not all there is to it.
Everytime I check back I see tons of awesome new stuff added to the game and progress for the engine itself. That makes me both happy and somewhat.. outclassed? Back then I always tried to do my best with the limited event options SMBX had to offer to create fun and gimmicky bosses, while also paying attention to the atmosphere and visual appeal of my levels. Lately, whenever I feel like coming back for real, I find myself being overwhelmed by the sheer amount I have to start learning now in order to compete with "today's meta" of designing levels. Lunalua and all that stuff. It enables what I always wanted to do at that time (bosses with random actions instead of a fixed pattern, bigger/smaller playable charas, for example) but I can't see myself learning on how to do all that cool stuff with outside stress, all the other stuff I want to do in my free time and just thinking about how time consuming it is for me to learn all that stuff again and again. (insert Pokemon rom hacking ptsd here) This is the third source of my lack of motivation, next to what you've mentioned in the starting post and laziness.

This is how I feel and think about it. Now if you excuse me, there's a guild war waiting for me.
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Re: Motivation

Postby Danny » Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:01 pm

Jayoshi wrote:for your argument's sake,
To be completely fair, I never structured or intended the post as argumentative, it was reflective of opinion, it had statements, and it had propositions. I don't know why people decided to blow it out of proportion and treat it as if I were against something, because I'm not against anything. Unless I wrote a 12-page paragraph explaining every detail of my opinion, everyone else will be making up their own opinion of that opinion, and completely twisting or misunderstanding statements I've said, butchering the context to meet their own demands.

You can disagree with my opinion, that's standard nature, but everything I said was just ramblings, wild viewpoints, and suggestions, and none of it had to be like what I proposed at all. And it's annoying when people try to argue against these opinions by bringing up absolutely ridiculous scenarios, like this one:
Jayoshi wrote:Because there's too much emphasis on getting a finished product out, a level judge would have to be bothered enough to download the level, place it somewhere in their world folder, play through the level, and then conceive and write their opinion. However, if WIP topics were allowed where you could just share an idea or a few screenshots, then none of that's required--they'd just have to read through the topic, and they could start writing their opinion from there. It'd still be a lot of work, but the work per level/episode in progress would be a lot less, so with the same amount of effort spent would help more people than it would if they had to judge a whole level or a whole level pack.
Are you making the assumption that everyone is this lazy? On top of that, people have already argued that "judging something by its screenshots is bad", which is exampled here:
HeroLinik wrote:
TheDinoKing wrote:judging from screenshot
People really need to stop doing this. My criticism topic specifically stated that people should not be judging from screenshots because it gives a false impression of what the level really is. Say the level is bland just because the screens look that way? That doesn't do anything, and it may turn people off from playing the level. If anything is done, reviewing from screenshots is just an example of laziness at not bothering to download the level and give a more in-depth review. If you have something to say about the level but don't know how to say it without downloading the level, then don't even bother saying it.
So how do you fix that issue? You've gridlocked yourself into a position where nobody wants to download levels/projects to judge them, but also judging things based on their screenshots is bad. I never gave any implication at all in my post that people had to post only finished product, because that is completely asinine and ruins the point of "projects" in general, and I'm not even sure where you got that mindset from. I'm also not even sure you're on the proper mindset in regards to "good presentation", and I'm not going to take ten minutes explaining it to anyone because it's a fact that someone is going to come along and completely twist my words.
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Re: Motivation

Postby Enjl » Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:33 pm

Danny wrote:Are you making the assumption that everyone is this lazy? On top of that, people have already argued that "judging something by its screenshots is bad", which is exampled here:
The problem comes with viewing stuff as "judging" rather than "supporting". Yes it's not possible to describe a detailed flow of every obstacle in a single screenshot, but it is possible to get a general idea on a setup and give input on it.

Jayoshi and I talked about that the projects section would be more benefitial to users if it were set up to be about feedback to WIP levels and episodes, rather than to be about showcase. Designers being like "hey I had this idea but I'm unsure about where to go with it" being able to get some quick advice which they can take into consideration.

Also,
I'm that lazy.
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Re: Motivation

Postby Danny » Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:45 pm

Enjl wrote:
Danny wrote:Are you making the assumption that everyone is this lazy? On top of that, people have already argued that "judging something by its screenshots is bad", which is exampled here:
The problem comes with viewing stuff as "judging" rather than "supporting". Yes it's not possible to describe a detailed flow of every obstacle in a single screenshot, but it is possible to get a general idea on a setup and give input on it.
But then you get the naysayers that come along and tell you off for doing exactly that, and the perception of what's wrong and what's right becomes skewed and boils down to opinions.
Enjl wrote:Jayoshi and I talked about that the projects section would be more benefitial to users if it were set up to be about feedback to WIP levels and episodes, rather than to be about showcase. Designers being like "hey I had this idea but I'm unsure about where to go with it" being able to get some quick advice which they can take into consideration.
But this is exactly what they were made for in the first place, so you and him aren't coming up with anything revolutionary by discussing that, you're literally just discussing how things used to be, so nothing new has come up here.
Enjl wrote:Also,
I'm that lazy.
That's literally your own issue, and if you can't handle putting an extremely minimal amount of effort into something as ludicrous as what was presented, then how can we trust that you're competent in how people need to do things?
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Re: Motivation

Postby Zha Hong Lang » Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:06 pm

Danny wrote: To be completely fair, I never structured or intended the post as argumentative, it was reflective of opinion, it had statements, and it had propositions. I don't know why people decided to blow it out of proportion and treat it as if I were against something, because I'm not against anything. Unless I wrote a 12-page paragraph explaining every detail of my opinion, everyone else will be making up their own opinion of that opinion, and completely twisting or misunderstanding statements I've said, butchering the context to meet their own demands.

You can disagree with my opinion, that's standard nature, but everything I said was just ramblings, wild viewpoints, and suggestions, and none of it had to be like what I proposed at all.
Ironically, I think you're reading a bit much into what I wrote... all I'm just saying is that when someone states their case, that's their argument. Enjl's post is his argument. My initial post was my argument. I don't extrapolate anything else to the word, that's really all it has to be.
Jayoshi wrote:Because there's too much emphasis on getting a finished product out, a level judge would have to be bothered enough to download the level, place it somewhere in their world folder, play through the level, and then conceive and write their opinion. However, if WIP topics were allowed where you could just share an idea or a few screenshots, then none of that's required--they'd just have to read through the topic, and they could start writing their opinion from there. It'd still be a lot of work, but the work per level/episode in progress would be a lot less, so with the same amount of effort spent would help more people than it would if they had to judge a whole level or a whole level pack.
Are you making the assumption that everyone is this lazy?
I'm not talking about writing an opinion for one level or episode, I'm talking about writing an opinion for an entire section of levels and episodes. If one wanted to write a good, critical review for each one, that would indeed be a lot of work. However, just criticizing a few screenshots isn't really that bad, and it's much easier to do on a larger scale.

If you still think that reviewing a whole section is not much work, then I'd advise you not to assume everyone else has the same amount of free time you have.
On top of that, people have already argued that "judging something by its screenshots is bad", which is exampled here:
HeroLinik wrote:
TheDinoKing wrote:judging from screenshot
People really need to stop doing this. My criticism topic specifically stated that people should not be judging from screenshots because it gives a false impression of what the level really is. Say the level is bland just because the screens look that way? That doesn't do anything, and it may turn people off from playing the level. If anything is done, reviewing from screenshots is just an example of laziness at not bothering to download the level and give a more in-depth review. If you have something to say about the level but don't know how to say it without downloading the level, then don't even bother saying it.
So how do you fix that issue? You've gridlocked yourself into a position where nobody wants to download levels/projects to judge them, but also judging things based on their screenshots is bad. I never gave any implication at all in my post that people had to post only finished product, because that is completely asinine and ruins the point of "projects" in general, and I'm not even sure where you got that mindset from. I'm also not even sure you're on the proper mindset in regards to "good presentation", and I'm not going to take ten minutes explaining it to anyone because it's a fact that someone is going to come along and completely twist my words.
I don't know what HeroLinik was quoting initially, but to be honest I don't agree with him. I'd say that making criticism about a screenshot is fine as long as what you say is true and genuinely helpful, and you don't treat the screenshot as if it were the level.

Some people just don't have enough time to give feedback on a whole level, and that's okay. Judging a level, especially if you want to judge it as best as possible, is not easy work. You have to consider playstyles of people different from yourself, analyze specific aspects of the level and deem whether they add to or take away from the general experience as a whole, and provide examples of how to improve if something is done incorrectly. If someone doesn't want to do all of this for every level (plus managing individual levels in a world folder, which I really hate doing personally), I think they should have the ability just to give feedback from a screenshot.
(formerly Jayoshi, Luigi, Luigi.net)

Enjl
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Re: Motivation

Postby Enjl » Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:57 pm

Oh ge I should've been a bit more elaborate in that last paragraph.
The issue with downloading and playing is hardly the effort but moreso the time. Playing and writing a post on a level is an effort that often lands in the timeframe of roughly an hour, for me at least, and most of the time it's just plain boring todo so I just prefer to do other things.

Also I'm not claiming to be revolutional but I've never seen the projects forum in the state that I've described since 2011 so pardon my lack of knowledge on the forum's history beyond that.
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Zha Hong Lang
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Re: Motivation

Postby Zha Hong Lang » Wed Jun 28, 2017 12:42 am

Enjl wrote:Also I'm not claiming to be revolutional but I've never seen the projects forum in the state that I've described since 2011 so pardon my lack of knowledge on the forum's history beyond that.
Having been in the community since 2009, I'm confident the projects, levels, and episodes forums have never been in the ideal state we've described. They've always been about showcasing work, not about merely discussing ideas.

I think there might have been one point where screenshots weren't allowed for level threads (and perhaps for projects as well), but that's the closest it's ever been. Ever since the Kathy days, complete levels and screenshots in both episode in progress and level threads have been mandatory.
(formerly Jayoshi, Luigi, Luigi.net)


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