You try to escape because you're in prison.

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You try to escape because you're in prison.

Postby Aero » Wed Sep 14, 2016 7:28 pm

Welcome to Aero's woke corner; today we're discussing Video Games

What makes games enjoyable is that they have clear player agency in virtual worlds. It's satisfying to see that your controls influenced the game and you progress when you succeed and fail because of your own actions. Those make a good game it could be agreed upon. It's nice being the hero that saves the day. It tries to fill that hole way deep down in your heart that you know you will never be a hero. Everyone wants to feel like they matter and they're making choices as the main character of their own story, but really your only choice is paper or plastic. Interestingly enough, the first sports games were an escape from the primitive world's choice of eat or be eaten. It gave them a goal, something to strive for instead of deal with the fact life has no end goal and they were at the mercy of their own will. Read Billions and Billions by Carl Sagan, great book that covers the subject. Their advantage though was that it wasn't an escape from a lack of fulfillment, but an escape to fulfillment when life was more mysterious. They weren't shut-ins with waifus and husbandos, they were real people that led better lives than a lot of people today as the bedrock for civilization. What have you done that's made life better for yourself and your posterity? Nothing, you're a prisoner of your own ambivalence to important life matters and would rather take the easy route and play a video game with a cute beginning, middle, and end to distract yourself from the anxieties of living your life to be the best you can be.

When was the last time you called someone you loved, or went out to see a land mark by your own choice? You would but you don't have the time, right? You don't have a sense of urgency. Your life is passing by, most of it spent asleep, and you're uninterested in most of what you do experience. Life goes by too fast and you feel like you're missing out, and you get anxious, irritable, you lash out and hurt the ones you love. Take a day off and take it slow, you don't know what you're missing. You will never lead a stable family, live in a home you own, and work at the job of your dreams. You just want out. It's okay, ask for help. Stop running. Do your best.

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Re: You try to escape because you're in prison.

Postby Pseudo » Wed Sep 14, 2016 8:54 pm

And yet you have the SMBX Minecraft server listed in your signature and just made a thread about the Mario series.
its ya girl pseudo and im back on a provisional basis

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Re: You try to escape because you're in prison.

Postby Aero » Wed Sep 14, 2016 10:16 pm

I never said I wasn't part of the problem.

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Re: You try to escape because you're in prison.

Postby Magician » Wed Sep 14, 2016 10:54 pm

Well, yeah. Truly great people don't get discouraged and run away from the fields in which they intend to pioneer change.

Games and movies and the like are a pastime to be enjoyed. They aren't supposed to be an escape even though many people use them that way. Ultimately though it's your own life; you decide what fulfills it.

I happen to be optimistic about what the videogame industry has done for technology.

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Re: You try to escape because you're in prison.

Postby Aero » Wed Sep 14, 2016 11:11 pm

Why do you think so many people use video games as an escape? What are they running from?

I'm not pessimistic myself about the tech, I welcome our robot overlords of tomorrow, I'm worried about the people. It's like imagining your day in third person and in time lapse: how the world goes on without you and you're idle. It's like you're dead. I don't know how you can make that fulfilling when you could be interacting with people and forming healthy relationships. Curious to know what your take on that is.

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Re: You try to escape because you're in prison.

Postby DarkMatt » Wed Sep 14, 2016 11:32 pm

Entertainment, especially such that can be done without loss, is one of the founding pillars of civilization. That, however, loses a bit of its intrinsic purpose when the entertainment is emulating the satisfaction you were going to experience anyway. That's why you never see games really try to emulate the lives people live because that is when the point of entertainment is completely lost.

That is part as to why I am quietly, morbidly, concerned about the popularity with Bethesda sandboxes, (to name an example) especially considering 9 out of 10 Bethesda world are something a teenager fresh out of grammar class can bring to life. I can't make any argument because plenty of people play these sorts of escapism games and still lead healthy lives, not to mention we've had Barbie houses and action figures long before that, so it's prudent to say they're good or bad for people. A problem I can highlight, however, is the goal for people playing those games, and what happens when the facsimile of real mundanity becomes the replacement for such a thing. The only thing I know for certain is, there is no gain from doing that. What I want to know is why the full circle is reached, and how one can steer himself away from arriving at the same conclusion in the digital world and being just as depressed by the stark truth.

But I think I need AeroMatter or someone else to answer that question for me because it's less of a question and more of a statistic.
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Re: You try to escape because you're in prison.

Postby Danny » Wed Sep 14, 2016 11:59 pm

I'm going to tackle this in sections since there's a lot buzzing around all at once.
AeroMatter wrote:Why do you think so many people use video games as an escape? What are they running from?
Reality. Certain people use certain things as an escape on a daily basis, be it drugs, alcohol, painting, writing, playing an instrument, going for a walk, listen to music, or whatever else that person does as an escape from reality, video games also fall under this broad spectrum. Keep in mind that there is an extremely fine line between using video games as an escape mechanism and having a hobby involving video games. After mentally and/or socially exhausting yourself with a job, school, or what have you, it's relaxing to escape from reality for a while, and different people do this in different ways, it's just that video games have become a pretty apparent method of doing so, possibly because they're incredibly diverse and widespread.
AeroMatter wrote:I'm not pessimistic myself about the tech, I welcome our robot overlords of tomorrow, I'm worried about the people.
I'm not sure what this means. Worried about the people? In what aspect? Are you worried people are going to become slaves to the computer? I can tell you that it's highly likely that won't happen, at least not any time in the next 50 years.
AeroMatter wrote:It's like imagining your day in third person and in time lapse: how the world goes on without you and you're idle. It's like you're dead. I don't know how you can make that fulfilling when you could be interacting with people and forming healthy relationships.
The thing with it all is that in a growing age of technology, it's making it easier and easier for people to connect and form relationships. I'm not entirely sure what to make of the first part of this quote, because you're getting preachy about people who play video games, whether as a hobby or an escape, being dead and lifeless and antisocial. Technology has made it easier for people to share and express common interests, and it's starting to close some of the previously perceived social groups and gaps that existed before. It's really not as bad as you're making it sound, and it's most certainly not killing real-life interactions, because everyone has to partake in those every day in the first place.
AeroMatter wrote:It's nice being the hero that saves the day. It tries to fill that hole way deep down in your heart that you know you will never be a hero.
What a disappointment, you really crushed my dreams of being the hero that America needed. :cry:
AeroMatter wrote:Read Billions and Billions by Carl Sagan, great book that covers the subject. Their advantage though was that it wasn't an escape from a lack of fulfillment, but an escape to fulfillment when life was more mysterious. They weren't shut-ins with waifus and husbandos, they were real people that led better lives than a lot of people today as the bedrock for civilization. What have you done that's made life better for yourself and your posterity? Nothing, you're a prisoner of your own ambivalence to important life matters and would rather take the easy route and play a video game with a cute beginning, middle, and end to distract yourself from the anxieties of living your life to be the best you can be.
What a shocking and pretty derogatory statement! And what point were you trying to make here exactly? Are you just trying to shame people that play video games as an escape or hobby just because they don't fit to your social standards, and they're the most vulnerable majority to gripe about? If you're going to reference a book, and then begin to make an example of people, at least either give some more insight on the book, or at least don't compare a rather large majority of people to the works of an astrophysicist.
AeroMatter wrote:When was the last time you called someone you loved, or went out to see a land mark by your own choice? You would but you don't have the time, right? You don't have a sense of urgency. Your life is passing by, most of it spent asleep, and you're uninterested in most of what you do experience. Life goes by too fast and you feel like you're missing out, and you get anxious, irritable, you lash out and hurt the ones you love.
This is the very definition of depression, so if we're following this logic and asking the majority these questions, we should instead ask if they all have depression.
AeroMatter wrote:Take a day off and take it slow, you don't know what you're missing. You will never lead a stable family, live in a home you own, and work at the job of your dreams. You just want out. It's okay, ask for help. Stop running. Do your best.
Does this officially confirm the Illuminati and that we're being lead as a nation by a higher power that controls even the highest form of political power? Does this officially confirm that we, as a society, are just slaves to the media? Are you one of the chosen harbingers selected to deliver your message and warn those of the New World Order? Are you here to recruit more members to your cause and spread the word of "wake up sheeple"?

TL;DR - I'm not entirely sure what points you're trying to make or what message you're exactly trying to spread in this topic. Are you trying to say video games are the bane of human interaction and humanity itself, and that we should abandon them entirely? Are you trying to say that video games make people lifeless, anti-social husks? What are you trying to spread here?
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Re: You try to escape because you're in prison.

Postby Aero » Thu Sep 15, 2016 12:40 am

DarkMatt wrote:Entertainment, especially such that can be done without loss, is one of the founding pillars of civilization. That, however, loses a bit of its intrinsic purpose when the entertainment is emulating the satisfaction you were going to experience anyway. That's why you never see games really try to emulate the lives people live because that is when the point of entertainment is completely lost.
Not quite. Realism has become a huge trend in video games, and that's no coincidence given who is buying the games. Since they are works of fiction there is always that need for a suspension of disbelief to keep yourself immersed, however this should not be confused with entertainment NOT emulating the satisfaction you would experience anyway. Games don't sell well if it's about a guy going to his 9-5 job, and watching TV when he gets home; that's what people are trying to avoid. What I'm saying is that escapism is a futile effort and life is passing by whether you like it or not, and the way to get free from that is to take it slow and enjoy time with people.
DarkMatt wrote:That is part as to why I am quietly, morbidly, concerned about the popularity with Bethesda sandboxes, (to name an example) especially considering 9 out of 10 Bethesda world are something a teenager fresh out of grammar class can bring to life. I can't make any argument because plenty of people play these sorts of escapism games and still lead healthy lives, not to mention we've had Barbie houses and action figures long before that, so it's prudent to say they're good or bad for people. A problem I can highlight, however, is the goal for people playing those games, and what happens when the facsimile of real mundanity becomes the replacement for such a thing. The only thing I know for certain is, there is no gain from doing that. What I want to know is why the full circle is reached, and how one can steer himself away from arriving at the same conclusion in the digital world and being just as depressed by the stark truth.
I'm not sure if you should be quick to say people embrace escapism and lead healthy lives because it's almost a trope that gamers never quite fit in well, they're anxious or depressed, and they're more attached to video game characters than actual people. I do not think that's healthy, but I haven't run the numbers myself either which is why I'm judging off the patterns I see. The only way I see people avoiding becoming less depressed is a sense of belonging and identity which video games do not provide one with; it comes with your character and your behavior. I guess it's a sort of solipsism that's created from the detachment between the player and the avatar on the screen that's carried on after the game is shut down that could be causing this, and this weighs on emotional responses with people in a mostly negative way that pushes them away and creates the negative feedback loop leading to addiction and a need to escape.

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Re: You try to escape because you're in prison.

Postby DarkMatt » Thu Sep 15, 2016 1:27 am

AeroMatter wrote:Not quite. Realism has become a huge trend in video games, and that's no coincidence given who is buying the games. Since they are works of fiction there is always that need for a suspension of disbelief to keep yourself immersed, however this should not be confused with entertainment NOT emulating the satisfaction you would experience anyway. Games don't sell well if it's about a guy going to his 9-5 job, and watching TV when he gets home; that's what people are trying to avoid. What I'm saying is that escapism is a futile effort and life is passing by whether you like it or not, and the way to get free from that is to take it slow and enjoy time with people.
Realism for immersion sake and realism for emulation sake are two different things. I was referring to the fact that games emulating things we already do in reality are at the bottom of the popularity list. 's all well and good we make our games as realistic as possible, I was just pointing out something pretty obvious if you think about it: there's no go to work simulator because, as mentioned, that's not really considered entertainment anymore.
AeroMatter wrote:I'm not sure if you should be quick to say people embrace escapism and lead healthy lives because it's almost a trope that gamers never quite fit in well, they're anxious or depressed, and they're more attached to video game characters than actual people. I do not think that's healthy, but I haven't run the numbers myself either which is why I'm judging off the patterns I see. The only way I see people avoiding becoming less depressed is a sense of belonging and identity which video games do not provide one with; it comes with your character and your behavior. I guess it's a sort of solipsism that's created from the detachment between the player and the avatar on the screen that's carried on after the game is shut down that could be causing this, and this weighs on emotional responses with people in a mostly negative way that pushes them away and creates the negative feedback loop leading to addiction and a need to escape.
I wouldn't call it a trope so much as a stereotype. I think the confusion here is what talking to people constitutes.

Let's use me as an example. I may not have nearly as much friends in real as I do online but the main reason why I go online is to talk to those friends. If I don't have those friends, I play games until I find new ones. Once upon a time I was anxious and depressed about my standing in life, and yes the video games were used as a distraction from that, but that has been turned around, and right now I feel pretty satisfied with where my life is going. Yet here I am still playing games on a regular basis. I mean, I do get out of the house more often since I'm more in town and I wake up with a smile on my face because there is nothing wrong with my apartment, but I'm still acting, more or less, how I did before the upswing of my life.

That's why I think it's a bit unfair to conclude that escaping into games is a sign of underlying social issues.

Now, if they are literal NEETs with multiple waifus, then well of course it's a safe bet to say they have some problems with their lives that they're currently not dealing with, I mean at that point it's not the "escaping into games" that sticks out. However, that is on the deep end of the spectrum. There are people who play grinding games every day and they still lead pretty proactive lives and talk to various people, both online and off. It definitely varies, and it's honestly judging on personal preferences, but I think "playing games to escape is a bad thing" is a bit too broad of a generalization.

Anywho, I think you're tapping into a particular thought that can crop up in depressed people with no avenues of improvement: wishing to be someone else. Trying to help people who ultimately conclude that is going to be a lot harder than just telling them to go talk to people because they have concluded that, as you mentioned, themselves is all that matter to, themselves. I'm not selling your message short, a nudge in the right direction helps some people, but for those so entrenched in their method of escape, they wind up reaching the dead end they were trying to escape from in the first place. Hence my use of the term "full circle". And making the game the only thing that matters kind of shoots most other options of improvement, mostly because human beings as a general rule are too stubborn to double back on their steps and try a different path in life.
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Re: You try to escape because you're in prison.

Postby Danny » Thu Sep 15, 2016 1:48 am

DarkMatt wrote:There are people who play grinding games every day and they still lead pretty proactive lives and talk to various people, both online and off.
If you want the biggest way to back up this true fact, there's a little game called EVE Online which, while being a particularly grindy game, has an extremely extensive and rather social community, and it gets incredibly interesting since it writes its own stories with the impact of thousands of people. While, yes, it's a video game, and it's a hobby, it's about on the same level as people retroactively attending car conventions, at least around here it is.

http://www.polygon.com/features/2016/6/ ... -explained

EVE Online acts as a giant social network compacted down into a game. While it isn't everybody's cup of tea and it most certainly is one of the biggest grinds in video gaming, what matters the most is that people enjoy it and have established such a strong and powerful community within it. Preach what you will about it being virtual, it's still all real people working together and having an enjoyable experience in their hobby.
That's what defines it the most. It's not a lifestyle that people spend all of their time on, it's a hobby that people partake in during downtime. It's not bad for people to have hobbies, and video games being a hobby isn't a bad thing either.
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Re: You try to escape because you're in prison.

Postby Magician » Thu Sep 15, 2016 2:25 am

AeroMatter wrote:Why do you think so many people use video games as an escape? What are they running from?
This is all just speculation on my part but I think one factor is just the way that our society has formed, and the things that we encourage people to embrace and commit to that don't really work from, perhaps, a naturalistic view, and we think we need to keep going along with it.
I'll bring up marriage as an example. Some people are lucky and have good ones, but then there are a lot of divorces. In the western world it's looking like ... is it roughly half of marriages that end in divorce? What about the other half; are they all happy people, or do they just fear what'll happen if they tell the truth?
It seems to me that we make these huge risky investments into these relationships and when they start falling apart, sometimes there's a mutual interest in maintaining them despite it. Maybe you're in a situation where you could lose the kids if you rock the boat. Or even lose everything.
I dunno; either way people are unhappy and for whatever reason they fear change for the possibility of making things even worse for themselves. Perhaps videogames can be a way of mitigating a stressful situation without having to do anything about it.
AeroMatter wrote:I'm not pessimistic myself about the tech, I welcome our robot overlords of tomorrow, I'm worried about the people. It's like imagining your day in third person and in time lapse: how the world goes on without you and you're idle. It's like you're dead. I don't know how you can make that fulfilling when you could be interacting with people and forming healthy relationships. Curious to know what your take on that is.
I honestly don't know. I used to think like "whatever, it's subjective" and I still kind of think that way to an extent. Some people seek fulfillment in their relationships and others seek fulfillment in their passions. I think people on the consumption side of the latter must eventually get bored and want to create something themselves. At least I hope that will be the case for many people. There are things like Minecraft that make me perhaps a bit concerned that we're sating that part of people and sucking their creativity into a black hole, but then the redstone stuff is also being used to teach people basic ideas about how to apply logic to circuitry. There's also SMBX that teaches people about... well, in basic terms, the idea of setting up conditions and the things that those conditions trigger when set. With SMBX 2.0, if I'm correct, people will also be able to copy and apply lua code from other works and study it to learn some principles of programming and how syntax works, and they'll be able to build on that knowledge when they want to try something more complicated.

Here and now, the relationships we form aren't even entirely offline. Just a few months ago, I went off alone on a plane to Vancouver, and then across the ocean to Sydney. I spent a month there, and time has slowed for me considerably since I made that decision. Even after coming back, days have been moving by much slower. It's genuinely weird to me that it's only mid September right now, but it's been picking up speed again. I spent time over there with a friend I've known longer than I've been lurking SMBX forums, but I actually met them for the first time. This seems like it would back up your point, as it's certainly the most fulfilling thing I've done in a while, if not ever, and I plan to go back. At the same time it's really expensive, and supposing I had simply met someone offline it would have been cheaper to take that time off with them we both wanted it.

Maybe I just don't relate enough to that kind of self-indulgence to explain it properly. I do self-indulge but when it happens to be in something that I find engaging like a good videogame, movie, or book, I usually don't regret the time spent, and it has a similar effect on the passage of time for me as when I went to Australia but just not as dramatic. It's mainly things like facebook that sucks me in which drives me nuts whenever I look at the clock after browsing it.

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Re: You try to escape because you're in prison.

Postby Aero » Thu Sep 15, 2016 3:43 am

DarkMatt wrote:Realism for immersion sake and realism for emulation sake are two different things. I was referring to the fact that games emulating things we already do in reality are at the bottom of the popularity list. 's all well and good we make our games as realistic as possible, I was just pointing out something pretty obvious if you think about it: there's no go to work simulator because, as mentioned, that's not really considered entertainment anymore.
Depends on how you see immersion and realism. With realism, it becomes more personalized and it's easier to project yourself onto a character. You can relate better to the character that's a humanoid that can emote, speak, and is complex rather than the 2D sprite with speech bubbles. I would also call this emulation because it is emulating the very real parts of human interaction people are missing out on when they retreat into virtual worlds. I suppose this is where the demand for better and better graphics is coming from to some extent at least in the background.
DarkMatt wrote:Let's use me as an example. I may not have nearly as much friends in real as I do online but the main reason why I go online is to talk to those friends. If I don't have those friends, I play games until I find new ones. Once upon a time I was anxious and depressed about my standing in life, and yes the video games were used as a distraction from that, but that has been turned around, and right now I feel pretty satisfied with where my life is going. Yet here I am still playing games on a regular basis. I mean, I do get out of the house more often since I'm more in town and I wake up with a smile on my face because there is nothing wrong with my apartment, but I'm still acting, more or less, how I did before the upswing of my life.

That's why I think it's a bit unfair to conclude that escaping into games is a sign of underlying social issues.
To be clear, I wouldn't blame games alone for underlying social issues. You maintain a good balance, so on the surface there's nothing wrong with that. What you're doing now is good because you're not shutting yourself into virtual worlds, but when you were anxious and depressed you were distracting yourself. The core of the issue is not confronting demons or exercising your agency as a human being by using video games as a tool for escape. You must have wanted to be in control of your own life to do what it takes to get things under control, and whatever that was it would be something missed out on if you chose instead to keep playing. That's how people get stuck in neoteny and dysfunction builds up with circumstances outside of video games. The best advice for someone who isn't handling well and fits my description would be to take a walk and go wherever when they think about loading a game up. Just something to break the pattern and to move along as you managed to.

I mentioned something similar in my final solution for weebs thread about how they never grow up and become giant man children that aren't capable of maintaining a conversation, which just ends up being a huge negative feedback loop until you become a depressed person that descends into ironic calls for help with how empty and lonely they feel.
DarkMatt wrote:Now, if they are literal NEETs with multiple waifus, then well of course it's a safe bet to say they have some problems with their lives that they're currently not dealing with, I mean at that point it's not the "escaping into games" that sticks out. However, that is on the deep end of the spectrum. There are people who play grinding games every day and they still lead pretty proactive lives and talk to various people, both online and off. It definitely varies, and it's honestly judging on personal preferences, but I think "playing games to escape is a bad thing" is a bit too broad of a generalization.
Again, games alone aren't the only problem; that's just what this specific thread is talking about. NEETs with multiple waifus likely have a lot of other problems such as a bad upbringing, but it's also their choices that led them to where they are. They never learned how to talk to people, they feel that loneliness and they need something to fill that gap and it just so happens that video games and anime are the most common tools used for that. They spend their emotional investment on an uncaring avatar on a screen when it could be shared with a friend or family member. Video games are especially good at keeping people trapped in this because by design they give choices where they can't be found in real life. I believe this is true no matter who is playing which is why I made my generalization so broad.
DarkMatt wrote:Anywho, I think you're tapping into a particular thought that can crop up in depressed people with no avenues of improvement: wishing to be someone else. Trying to help people who ultimately conclude that is going to be a lot harder than just telling them to go talk to people because they have concluded that, as you mentioned, themselves is all that matter to, themselves. I'm not selling your message short, a nudge in the right direction helps some people, but for those so entrenched in their method of escape, they wind up reaching the dead end they were trying to escape from in the first place. Hence my use of the term "full circle". And making the game the only thing that matters kind of shoots most other options of improvement, mostly because human beings as a general rule are too stubborn to double back on their steps and try a different path in life.
I'd say it's less of a stubbornness thing and more of taking the path of least resistance thing, but they're around the same thing given how insistent people are with doing the minimum. No real disagreement.

Magician wrote: This is all just speculation on my part but I think one factor is just the way that our society has formed, and the things that we encourage people to embrace and commit to that don't really work from, perhaps, a naturalistic view, and we think we need to keep going along with it.
I'll bring up marriage as an example. Some people are lucky and have good ones, but then there are a lot of divorces. In the western world it's looking like ... is it roughly half of marriages that end in divorce? What about the other half; are they all happy people, or do they just fear what'll happen if they tell the truth?
It seems to me that we make these huge risky investments into these relationships and when they start falling apart, sometimes there's a mutual interest in maintaining them despite it. Maybe you're in a situation where you could lose the kids if you rock the boat. Or even lose everything.
I dunno; either way people are unhappy and for whatever reason they fear change for the possibility of making things even worse for themselves. Perhaps videogames can be a way of mitigating a stressful situation without having to do anything about it.
Yeah it's about 50/50 and that is a critical thing for people's development and is worthy of its own discussion. It's an interesting analogy too because video games are indeed an outlet to mitigate stress, however it's more of an interruption of it rather than actually effecting the problem, and lack of communication in marriages would be the same sort of offset of relationship issues.
Magician wrote:I honestly don't know. I used to think like "whatever, it's subjective" and I still kind of think that way to an extent. Some people seek fulfillment in their relationships and others seek fulfillment in their passions. I think people on the consumption side of the latter must eventually get bored and want to create something themselves. At least I hope that will be the case for many people. There are things like Minecraft that make me perhaps a bit concerned that we're sating that part of people and sucking their creativity into a black hole, but then the redstone stuff is also being used to teach people basic ideas about how to apply logic to circuitry. There's also SMBX that teaches people about... well, in basic terms, the idea of setting up conditions and the things that those conditions trigger when set. With SMBX 2.0, if I'm correct, people will also be able to copy and apply lua code from other works and study it to learn some principles of programming and how syntax works, and they'll be able to build on that knowledge when they want to try something more complicated.
I suppose the case can be made about video games being somewhat productive, however this doesn't really go into my point about how video games effect how people treat each other.
Magician wrote:Here and now, the relationships we form aren't even entirely offline. Just a few months ago, I went off alone on a plane to Vancouver, and then across the ocean to Sydney. I spent a month there, and time has slowed for me considerably since I made that decision. Even after coming back, days have been moving by much slower. It's genuinely weird to me that it's only mid September right now, but it's been picking up speed again. I spent time over there with a friend I've known longer than I've been lurking SMBX forums, but I actually met them for the first time. This seems like it would back up your point, as it's certainly the most fulfilling thing I've done in a while, if not ever, and I plan to go back. At the same time it's really expensive, and supposing I had simply met someone offline it would have been cheaper to take that time off with them we both wanted it.
This pretty much is exactly my point. Glad to hear it went well.
Magician wrote:Maybe I just don't relate enough to that kind of self-indulgence to explain it properly. I do self-indulge but when it happens to be in something that I find engaging like a good videogame, movie, or book, I usually don't regret the time spent, and it has a similar effect on the passage of time for me as when I went to Australia but just not as dramatic. It's mainly things like facebook that sucks me in which drives me nuts whenever I look at the clock after browsing it.
Yeah, Facebook was a huge time waster for me too. I just had to stop going there, but it was hard the first few times because I had it down to muscle memory to login. It's like with the three day hump for quitting smoking: after the first few days the urge goes away. That whole website works like some weird meditation thing with the constant self-indulgence where hours can pass by in what feels like minutes.

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Re: You try to escape because you're in prison.

Postby DarkMatt » Thu Sep 15, 2016 5:49 pm

AeroMatter wrote:Depends on how you see immersion and realism. With realism, it becomes more personalized and it's easier to project yourself onto a character. You can relate better to the character that's a humanoid that can emote, speak, and is complex rather than the 2D sprite with speech bubbles. I would also call this emulation because it is emulating the very real parts of human interaction people are missing out on when they retreat into virtual worlds. I suppose this is where the demand for better and better graphics is coming from to some extent at least in the background.
I admit that this is an awkward way to split hairs, but I'd like to go pull up something Magician said and reply to that as well.
Magician wrote:There are things like Minecraft that make me perhaps a bit concerned that we're sating that part of people and sucking their creativity into a black hole, but then the redstone stuff is also being used to teach people basic ideas about how to apply logic to circuitry. There's also SMBX that teaches people about... well, in basic terms, the idea of setting up conditions and the things that those conditions trigger when set. With SMBX 2.0, if I'm correct, people will also be able to copy and apply lua code from other works and study it to learn some principles of programming and how syntax works, and they'll be able to build on that knowledge when they want to try something more complicated.
Hyper realistic Minecraft would be fine, for the most part, since the real enjoyment of the game, that is, the reason I would say most people play it, is to build with people. I think simulating reality for the sake of having a more accessible and friendly atmosphere for escapists to actually find the thing they're running away from reality to look for is good, especially when, if they find it, they start developing as a person and then step out of the second life to go fix their first.

But I think AeroMatter and I both know that sounds great on paper and hardly happens in practice. The thing about games like Minecraft is that they can create relationships that are just as good, but they can also feed negative feedback loops. Same goes for SMBX.

I think the point I'm heading towards is that video games are, ultimately, tools first. Games can teach us a lot about ourselves, cough Undertale, but I would surmise people taking their bad situation and throwing it into video games is either never going to touch Undertale or the message of Undertale is going to fall on deaf ears. I mean, I care more about Undertale's characters than any other video game's, and I'm sure a lot of people do the same, but I don't think they're the substitute to talking to real people that would debunk AeroMatter's argument. Nevermind that Undertale, while really good, is still stuck fated to be the pauper indie game. Class rule fucking sucks in real life, yes it applies to video games, and yes it's a big reason why people escape into video games.
AeroMatter wrote:To be clear, I wouldn't blame games alone for underlying social issues. You maintain a good balance, so on the surface there's nothing wrong with that. What you're doing now is good because you're not shutting yourself into virtual worlds, but when you were anxious and depressed you were distracting yourself. The core of the issue is not confronting demons or exercising your agency as a human being by using video games as a tool for escape. You must have wanted to be in control of your own life to do what it takes to get things under control, and whatever that was it would be something missed out on if you chose instead to keep playing. That's how people get stuck in neoteny and dysfunction builds up with circumstances outside of video games. The best advice for someone who isn't handling well and fits my description would be to take a walk and go wherever when they think about loading a game up. Just something to break the pattern and to move along as you managed to.

I mentioned something similar in my final solution for weebs thread about how they never grow up and become giant man children that aren't capable of maintaining a conversation, which just ends up being a huge negative feedback loop until you become a depressed person that descends into ironic calls for help with how empty and lonely they feel.
Ah. That is a big obstacle with how a human being is raised: control. When I get back into college I need to A: take a class ran by the campus's psychology teacher, and B: talk to him about how nurturing can fail on so many levels it's terrifying, one of those levels being learning control.

Control really has to be taught, which reveals a crippling social debt that causes the negative feedback loop. I don't know why this is a hard concept to grasp and even teach but the human mind cannot be trusted to figure out how to be a proud member of society on their own, yet lazy fuckwits in charge of our humanity believe that anyway, so, crippling social debt. The only way that can really be stopped is if you and I, and others, talk to people and tell them that breaking the vicious cycle is as simple as grabbing control of your life and steering it somewhere you'll be satisfied with. That's really all you have to do in life to die happy and wish for others to do the same.

Problem is people can go so far down the rabbit hole that it's the pessimism that defines their life and they disagree and lash out at anyone who tells them there was once a time where that wasn't a case and it's much better than their failed attempt to make it better. Sadly, there are hikikomoris so far down the abyss that they aren't getting out in a peaceful productive way. However, while there are those that can't be talked out, there are those that we can stop from getting that low.

AeroMatter wrote:Again, games alone aren't the only problem; that's just what this specific thread is talking about. NEETs with multiple waifus likely have a lot of other problems such as a bad upbringing, but it's also their choices that led them to where they are. They never learned how to talk to people, they feel that loneliness and they need something to fill that gap and it just so happens that video games and anime are the most common tools used for that. They spend their emotional investment on an uncaring avatar on a screen when it could be shared with a friend or family member. Video games are especially good at keeping people trapped in this because by design they give choices where they can't be found in real life. I believe this is true no matter who is playing which is why I made my generalization so broad.
It definitely comes down to what you have going into the pretend land versus what the pretend land is giving you. I mean I've played a lot of weebshit and I don't find myself particularly attached to any waifu in general. Hell, I don't really have waifus since I make my own. I get what you're saying though, I just think you should consider how the person is faring going into games like that. Sure video games can enable weebs but, christ, so can a whole bunch of other stuff. But yeah I should drop this train of thought. While I think there are far greater traps than playing hentai novels we pretty much arrive at the same conclusion.

I should really stop talking about the magnitude of this problem and talk about solving it, but I think I've exhausted my brain for now. Got the munchies. Just assume I'm drifting towards the point "It's really what people want out of their video games and it's best to encourage others to play for the right reasons." while I recharge my batteries.
AeroMatter wrote:I'd say it's less of a stubbornness thing and more of taking the path of least resistance thing, but they're around the same thing given how insistent people are with doing the minimum. No real disagreement.
Stubbornness and laziness kind of feed into eachother. You get used to spending the least amount of effort so you're too stubborn to spend more. I don't mind how one sees it, I just find it helpful to see the pairings between emotions to explain how the human mind moves.
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Re: You try to escape because you're in prison.

Postby Magician » Thu Sep 15, 2016 9:11 pm

Yeah, I wasn't fully supporting "relationships = fulfillment" when I said that part. I was building more on where I said: "Ultimately though it's your own life; you decide what fulfills it." I think I mostly agree with you guys but let me elaborate:

In a way, I think some people also seek success in relationships to get away from never accomplishing anything in their lives and then some even resent their kids when they're not able to live those accomplishments through said kids vicariously. Relationships aren't always the solution to our problems. What does that have to do with games? I guess I'm just saying they sometimes offer a new path and you can build on and you can blah blah things I already said. Even besides that, though, there's the notion of "accomplishments = fulfillment" and my sense is that if games are just THE THING that makes you happy, then screw it I guess. Maybe it doesn't really go into what you guys are talking about but I was more just commenting on the statement in the OP and the question posed to me. Still I won't deny that there are people who have that addiction and play a lot of games and are simply unhappy. If you're too focused on games to actually provide said games for yourself along with shelter and proper nutrition and exercise and all that, that's also definitely a huge problem.

Personally, right now, my goals are in order of happiness, health, financial stability, relationships, and then career success. In a way relationships and success for me are only a means to an end. I think other people have different priorities though.

Fair to expect we can just move on from that thought, but feel free to comment.
AeroMatter wrote:Yeah it's about 50/50 and that is a critical thing for people's development and is worthy of its own discussion. It's an interesting analogy too because video games are indeed an outlet to mitigate stress, however it's more of an interruption of it rather than actually effecting the problem, and lack of communication in marriages would be the same sort of offset of relationship issues.
I'm not sure communication can solve every relationship, just to be fair. Reality isn't that simple. What it CAN do in the event of an irreconcilable marriage is help bring it to its conclusion, but like I said, marriage is a huge risky investment, and one that is pressured for in our society. It seems to me for example that we built our entire housing system around marriage, because houses just aren't affordable on a single income. There's pressure to maintain long-term relationships but yet it's something we aren't naturally good at, and even then marriage isn't exactly something everyone is looking for. Is this a problem you can just talk your way out of?
... Of course it is, isn't it? When you talk to people and make more friends, there are places you can go, and you can get help and even advice. It's a matter of getting over that fear, and perhaps part of that is the fear of people thinking less of you for needing or accepting help. I've seen that before. I've had friends where their situation was "I'm in debt and the interest rates are literally shitting poison all over my entire existence."
And I just say to them, "I'll let you borrow 5000 (or whatever it was; probably not that high) and kill the interest rate. That's one problem off the table. Just pay me back when you can."
"No lol I can't accept help."

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Re: You try to escape because you're in prison.

Postby Artemis008 » Fri Sep 16, 2016 7:47 pm

I play electronic games, and I enjoy them. I've heard all the arguments

-Only spoiled children play videogames
-Video Games are EVIL
-its not physical (its bad)
-2 violent 4 me
-Its a waste of valuable time I could use doing important things (TV)

So now tell me how throwing around a ball to score imaginary points is any better?
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Re: You try to escape because you're in prison.

Postby Danny » Fri Sep 16, 2016 10:59 pm

Artemis008 wrote:So now tell me how throwing around a ball to score imaginary points is any better?
Physical activity, but I still don't really understand how it's gotten to the point where every country has to jack off to which team they think is the best.

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2016/08/brazil- ... near-brawl
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Re: You try to escape because you're in prison.

Postby Artemis008 » Fri Sep 16, 2016 11:40 pm

Syndrilevosse wrote:
Artemis008 wrote:So now tell me how throwing around a ball to score imaginary points is any better?
Physical activity, but I still don't really understand how it's gotten to the point where every country has to jack off to which team they think is the best.

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2016/08/brazil- ... near-brawl
So VG's are bad because they aren't physical? Chess isn't in any means physical and no one has an issue with that.
Point is, football, baseball, what ever sport you participate in will not get you a better spot in life and that's the main reason people hate VG's.
If your okay with baseball or any other sport, then its not really justified to hate gaming for that reason.
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Well you see luigi, when a paisano puts his spaghetti noodle in a mamma mia’s ravioli, a little bambino covered in prosciutto comes out about nine months later -Mario

I believe in Mario as my lord and Savior, if you do, put this image in your signature.
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Re: You try to escape because you're in prison.

Postby Danny » Sat Sep 17, 2016 1:07 am

Artemis008 wrote:
Syndrilevosse wrote:
Artemis008 wrote:So now tell me how throwing around a ball to score imaginary points is any better?
Physical activity, but I still don't really understand how it's gotten to the point where every country has to jack off to which team they think is the best.

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2016/08/brazil- ... near-brawl
So VG's are bad because they aren't physical? Chess isn't in any means physical and no one has an issue with that.
Point is, football, baseball, what ever sport you participate in will not get you a better spot in life and that's the main reason people hate VG's.
If your okay with baseball or any other sport, then its not really justified to hate gaming for that reason.
I never said that video games were bad, and I also didn't support sports in the first place.
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Re: You try to escape because you're in prison.

Postby Magician » Sat Sep 17, 2016 1:53 am

You wouldn't catch me defending the Olympics with a IOC laser sight pointed at my crotch, but sports for fun is alright. I think that's one of the ways people can stay healthy AND have fun, because screw that treadmill shit. Some people need a more immediate motivator to stay fit and for some it's a scoreboard. Going out and having fun playing an actual active sport is not something I will ever regret doing even if I am terrible at it, and I'm doing it with people I actually like. Try paintball; it can get pretty rough but it's fun when no one's being an ass.
If you're like me and don't feel like paying money to experience getting shot at, capture the flag can be a very active game with far less risk of someone redecorating the inside of your mouth, so there's that too.

Either way that does sort of come back to what AeroMatter mentioned about building healthy relationships. Having fun with people with sports is like a win win for everyone. I don't fault people for playing videogames and making friends across the globe but I think you can balance both, and I take neither sport nor "e-sport" too seriously.

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Re: You try to escape because you're in prison.

Postby MistakesWereMade » Sat Sep 17, 2016 2:17 am

last time i checked i wasnt playing mortal kombat because i needed to let out some inner rage in the form of gorey violence because i needed to escape from society

i just wanted to spam my shit on khon


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